The one where she knows what makes us tick - Tamar Cohen CEO/Founder at HaloEffect Management E186

🎤🎞️Beyond behaviors into motivations in “The one where she knows what makes us tick” with Tamar Cohen CEO/Founder at HaloEffect Management in CX Passport Episode 186🎧 What’s in the episode?...

CHAPTERS

0:00 Introduction

2:04 Tamar's journey to co-author white paper

4:00 Importance of emotions in employee experience

7:00 Surprising insights from research

10:00 Practical approaches to understand employee behavior

14:00 Designing effective incentive programs

17:00 Role of employee experience in CX

20:15 1st Class Lounge

23:36 Us vs Them in business emotions and behaviors

27:47 Connecting employee experience to business results

30:21 Contact info and closing

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I'm Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport

Episode resources:

Tamar LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tamarcohen/

HaloEffect Web: https://www.myhaloeffect.com/

Transcript

Tamar Cohen: 0:00

Of any kind of experience program, the immediate desire is to go into data, right? And let's look at the data. Let's look at the numbers. Let's understand sort of what's happening and why it's happening. But humans aren't data,

Rick Denton: 0:11

customer experience wisdom, a dash of travel talk. We've been cleared for takeoff. Welcome to today's episode of CX passport. I am thrilled to introduce Tamar Cohen, coming to us today from Manhattan, in New York City, most recently, the Vice President of employee experience at a global insurance company. Tamar brings high energy, proven experience in creating customer centric strategies and employee engagement programs. Tamara's experience includes implementing a company's first employee experience program, crafting a successful listening program, implementing employee journeys across the enterprise and standardizing employee voice initiatives. She's also implemented Global Customer Experience programs for other Fortune 500 companies from the ground up, coming out of that depth of career experience, temar recently launched her own consultancy focused on the intersection of employee experience and customer experience. Now we talk a bit, quite a bit about employee experiences, impact on customer experience, on CX passport. I'm really looking forward to focusing on that today, albeit with a slightly different lens. Currently, Tamar is co authoring a white paper with Diane majors, a former CX passport guest as well, all the way back in episode nine single digits. Y'all. The white paper will be on the intersection of employee experience and customer experience. The twist is that this paper will center on the behavioral and emotional aspects, the what makes us tick, of employee experience. And maybe, just maybe, I'll get her to reveal her favorite tourists will never know about this place, Manhattan, restaurant. We'll see if I can crack that code today with Tamar. Tamar, welcome to CX passport.

Tamar Cohen: 2:02

Thank you so much. It's great to be here.

Rick Denton: 2:04

It is great to be here. And folks, I'm going to lift the curtain back just a little bit here. We have had all sorts of technology challenges. And so when I say I am thrilled to finally get this content on video, on audio, you have no idea, because it is so good that we fought through this to make this work, and I know you're going to enjoy this in today's episode. Hey, first of all, it's no secret I'm a huge fan of Diane majors. It's no surprise to anyone else in the customer experience space. Tell me how did that come about, that you came to be co authoring a white paper with her?

Tamar Cohen: 2:36

Yeah, it was one of those sort of, I sometimes can't believe that this happened. It's one of those things where I knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy who knew Diane, and, you know, ultimately, just sort of meeting that way, you know, and speaking with a really, you know, good colleague of mine, and talking to him a little bit about what I was looking to do, he recommended, you know, hey, listen, I think he'd really get along with Diane. You know, she's really deep in the space. And after talking to her, really just for about half an hour, we immediately went deep into customer experience, employee experience, the intersection, how there really is not much content out there that really talks about how it intersects, why it should intersect, where some of the break points are. And we just realized that, you know, our interests, our background, and overall experiences really overlapped. And so as we started talking, she's the one that broached it. And I, you know, kind of had this, you know, sort of rubbing my eyes, moment, like, really, yes, you know, yes, yes, and yes, and, you know. So we've been working on it for a while, you know, it's, it's one of those things. It could potentially be a book. I mean, there is so much content out there, there's so much to talk about. You know, what we're trying to do in terms of making this more unique, right? And not just another kind of, like clickbait download, right? You know, because there is a lot out there, there really isn't much content that talks explicitly about how each one works, like customer experience and employee experience, let alone how they come together. You know, I know for myself as a practitioner in the field, every time that I've been sort of looking for information where I've been trying to get just some guides, some know how, some sort of things to answer some of my questions, I just find listicles, right? You know, just articles that are just, you know, the top five things to do, here are the things not to do. You know, I was looking for guides. I was looking for information. I was looking for business cases. I was looking for watch outs even, right? You know, because when you're in front of the CEO executive boards, they're going to pummel you with questions, and you're going to have to defend yourself. You're going to figure out the ROI. And I just I just wasn't finding any of that information. And so as we started putting this together, we really tried to keep a focus on how it works, why it's important. But then that emotional side, that behavior side, really started to come through, and that's something I've been focusing on even in my own work. But the idea is that this kind of brings it all together. So, you know, we're trying. To really, kind of create that breakthrough, that breakthrough document. So, you know,

Rick Denton: 5:04

yeah, well, what I love the idea of, hey, look, I saw that there's a gap, and let's fill the gap, right? That's just genius and business and research and anything. I like the idea of, where is it that we're really missing this? And that point of where you had talked about that behavioral, that emotional side of employee experience, that's the one that really caught me. So why is that? What makes that a different take on the typical look at employee experience? I think

Tamar Cohen: 5:32

with any kind of experience program, the immediate desire is to go into data, right? And let's look at the data. Let's look at the numbers. Let's understand sort of what's happening and why it's happening, but humans aren't data, right? Data can basically acknowledge what's happened in the past. It is a very retroactive look, and, you know, can predict based on certain logical factors. But humans are not data. They're also not logical or rational human beings, right? And so it's very easy to kind of lay out in a very flattened way, and it makes sense. And it's very easy to put on a piece of paper and present to a to an executive, and I get that I have been in that seat, yeah, but, you know, I'm sure, you know, many people know Daniel Kahneman, right? He's the Nobel laureate psychologist, and he noted that human beings are really only rational about 15% of the time, and the rest of the time. We're making very emotional basis decisions, you know, about 85% of the time. So when we sort of look at, you know, there's a lot of talk right now in terms of, you know, behavioral science and biases and heuristics, you know, basically what he called system one thinking, but that deep, rational, intuitive, interpretive thinking 15% of the time, right? I mean, it's why supermarkets, you know, move their kind of like price to move items, you know, right in the center, right at your eyeline. It's also why nine to nine cents feels cheaper than $1 right? Things like that. So it's a lot of this kind of, like quick thinking, or even our gut, that drives us much more than deep, rational thinking. And so when experienced management leaders are trying to understand gaps in the process. You know what's happening? You know that across the different transactional journeys, yes, there are actions and yes, there are kind of very logical pathways, and there are sort of pathways that they're taken down, that are intentional. But why we might go to a website, why we might engage with a client, why we might, as an employee, quit after, pardon me, about three years. Those are not necessarily entirely data based. The data will tell us what's happening. It'll tell us maybe where it's happening, and allow us to do some segmentation, but it really doesn't tell us why, and so we're trying to really get into more of the sentiment side of it.

Your CX Passport Captain: 7:45

This is your captain speaking. I want to thank you for listening to CX Passport today. We’ve now reached our cruising altitude so I’ll turn that seatbelt sign off. <ding> While you’re getting comfortable, hit that Follow or Subscribe button in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. I’d love it if you’d tell a friend about CX Passport and leave a review so that others can discover the show as well. Now, sit back and enjoy the rest of the episode.

Rick Denton: 8:11

I want to get into that company and data and emotions and all that, because you're right. It's much easier to put a spreadsheet up on a PowerPoint than to talk about someone's feelings. Y'all have done this research. You've been playing in this space for a bit now. What surprised you most? You know, there's a there's a bevy of conventional wisdom, but I bet you got in there like, Huh? I didn't expect that. What surprised you when you got into this research? Yeah,

Tamar Cohen: 8:35

you know, it's funny. This is gonna be a strange answer, but the first thing that surprised me is how much I enjoyed it.

Rick Denton: 8:43

That's not what I expected you to say. Well, there's two things that surprised me.

Tamar Cohen: 8:50

No, you know, the truth is, is, you know, it always interested me, but you know, going really deep into it, you know, reading the the Kahneman book, you know, Thinking Fast and Slow, reading Adam Grant's book began. Even Katie milkman has a book on how to change so understanding really deeply. What are those elements that not only sort of imply that, you know, no, we're not rational, and we do make much more kind of gut based emotional reactions. But what does that mean when we're making decisions? What does that mean when we're trying to maybe modify somebody's belief? When you sort of put all of this information together and you start kind of understanding what goes behind decision making, it also just made me aware of what I do out of habit, and how I sort of lean on my own gut, and so I do force myself to think things through now a lot more. But the second thing, which probably is more alone, what you were expecting me to say,

Rick Denton: 9:49

Well, the first one though it's kind of research or heal thyself, sort of, Oh, crap, I do this. Oops. So I like that, yeah, but it's good

Tamar Cohen: 9:58

to end up a Yay. I'm glad I do. This. Yeah, exactly, yeah. But the second thing is really, also really more deeply understanding how much the macro environment impacts us. So, you know, we talk a lot about political climate, inflationary pressures, geopolitics, things like that, but we don't really talk about how it impacts our day to day, kind of what we bring with us into the office as employees, kind of how it might impact how we do different kinds of targeting, and even just how it affects our own buying habits. One of the things that I learned from research is that I forget the actual number, I think was about 80% of our buying decisions have at least three emotional drivers behind it. You know, things like things that will make me feel good, things that'll allow me to feel like I'm keeping up with the Joneses, or even treating myself, right? So when you realize that most of your decisions are not just this very rational database, I want this because it's normally because, you know, even from like, I'm feeling hungry and I deserve a treat today, right? These like little decisions that you make along the way are very much, you know, are very emotionally based. And quite honestly, you know, it's made me kind of track my own spending habits, and, not gonna lie, my Amazon shopping, it's gone down now that I've, Oh, that's interesting,

Rick Denton: 11:16

that it's had that sort of and exactly how emotions can have a direct, like, you're saying, direct tie on actions. And I want to ask about that, but I'm going to have to reveal something here. There was a my wife and I had to go to a event for our cousin, or, yeah, our nephew, sorry, nephew yesterday, and it had us out late, so we ate out last night, and I didn't need to get that extra cookie, but it was late, I was hungry, and I got that cookie, and I bet it was more of that emotion of all right, I went out here, drove an hour to go to this event. I'm kind of hungry. I deserve a treat. So thanks. Thank you for making me feel guilty. Maybe that'll be the title, the one where she makes Rick feel guilty

Tamar Cohen: 11:55

with all best intentions. Yes,

Rick Denton: 11:58

I will say it was, it was a good cookie. So I don't regret the choice. Maybe the scale did this morning, but the desires did not. So let's take that into the company world. The whole point of this, right? We're talking about employee experience. We know that companies love data. They don't really know how to handle emotions yet, just like you said, the emotions are behind the behaviors. So let's get practical. How have you helped companies understand those emotions behind the employee behaviors, and then help the companies build the approaches that generate the behaviors that the companies seek from their employees. Yeah.

Tamar Cohen: 12:30

So I'm going to just start by saying, you know, to every practitioner out there, like, I hear you, I feel you. It is so hard to kind of bring this concept in, because the second leaders kind of hear like, I don't care how you feel, like we have to get production. We have to get things going right. We have we have to hit I get it. I've been there. But introducing open end comments, introducing focus groups, introducing customer and employee listening, mostly employee listening has been transformative for a couple of reasons. You know, in some of my last roles, there were always surveys that were out there, but it was always database, very few open ends. And so there was data, but there was never any reason why, you know. And so just a lot of, you know, conference room discussions around, you know, I don't understand. This went down half a point. This went down, you know, this went up half a point. Who knows why? Yeah, but the open end really kind of give you those nuggets of gold that tell you, this is what's happening to whom it's happening. These are the themes. This is the sentiment. So when people talk about things like what we were seeing around compensation, so correct, you know, maybe they were being paid against market, you know, rates and that might feel that way, that might be that way on paper, but the way that employees were feeling about it, with inflation, going up with health care costs, going up with the costs of pretty much everything going up, suddenly that salary that might be on paper feeling at market rate is suddenly feeling a lot less. And so we were able to kind of start to bring in some of these sort of explanations that helped kind of set Okay, so it's not that people are saying that they want necessarily, you know, a 4% raise, which, I mean, of course, nobody would say no to that, but it just gave a little bit more context to understand. Okay, so it's not so much that people are saying that they're paid below market rate, even though that they might be the words that they're saying. But when you look deeper into what's behind it, we understand what's going on, we can then make kind of other adjustments. We can make other accommodations, you know, like free lunches and other kind of things that allow the way people feel and the way they sort of talk about things like compensation to evolve over time. You know, another example actually, is even return to Office, which I know is a little bit of old news, but there's still a lot of talk about hybrid and what works and, oh yeah, ideal number of days in the office, when we were first starting that whole process around return to office and what that was going to mean, we held a lot of focus groups and what we were able to bring back to leader. Who were very skeptical about the process we have to come in, and this is what it is, no questions asked. Well, let's get really clear as to why people might be resisting. And we were hearing words that people were using over and over again, which words were getting them excited and also which words were getting them very agitated. And so when we brought that back to leaders, you know, we didn't just say this is how people feel. This is who's feeling it in what context these words, if you use it in a memo, will get them even more sort of, I have a manager, they used to say, like, give you the Heisman, you know, to push you away, you know. And then there are certain words that will make them feel much more comforted. And when we presented that, we were able to change the tone of all of the communication around return to Office, and actually really drop off the agitation that people were feeling and over time, as we started to use that so it's not that we kind of just bring in, sort of, this is how people feel, and this is what they say, because that is so easy to dismiss, right? But when it's aligned in context and aligned to the data and use to sort of explain and give some of that sort of, like modulation, then we really have, you know, a formula that was that got us much further faster.

Rick Denton: 16:11

Yeah. And what I like about that, too, is, and I'm a big believer of this, bring in the customer's voice. I tend to play more in the customer than the employee, but the same kind of thing. Bring the customer's voice in, like literally, play the calls, read the emails, that sort of thing, bring the social media statements to the forefront. You've gone one step further. And that is okay, I could do that. But did you see these themes? Listen to how this tone with this word, that sort of thing, and that gets practical. It starts to tickle that left brain side of someone that might be more data oriented and, okay, good. Here's a here's a tangible thing that drives me to action. You also mentioned in there like free lunches as an example. Free lunches are one of those things that I sort of categorize in that world of incentives. And I, I don't mean capital, I incentives, where it's dollars, bonuses hitting the wallet, but it's lowercase i, and I've seen companies try to use incentives as a way to influence behavior, but via that good old law of unintended consequences, there are times that it incents behaviors that they weren't actually seeking. So when you think about incentive and recognition programs, how should companies be thoughtful about designing it to influence the behaviors that they really want to see out of their employees?

Tamar Cohen: 17:22

Yeah, so I come from financial services, so, you know, unintended consequence was just kind of thrown out there, you know, every presentation, every recommendation, you know, well, what about the unintended consequences? Look, there's only so much that can be done to control for that, right? There's not everything can be anticipated. We can have the most perfect workflow and work plan, you know, listed out on PowerPoints, and things will happen that we can't possibly accommodate for. But what we do know is when we understand that decisions and actions are driven not only just by what we tell people to do, but also just how they feel about what they're about to do, and understanding that there's, you know, this role of emotions and influences that drive actually what they end up doing, we can incent in those ways. And so if we think about something like, you know, recognition programs, right when they're done really well, they can actually help to minimize some of those consequences, because, you know, again, mostly on the employee side, but on the customer side as well. Clarity, transparency, those are the things that people are looking for. They just want to know that when there's a path and they're following something that is very clear, but also it aligns with basic social models, right? So if I know that Rick had a process that went from A to B to C, then I should be able to go from A to B to C, right? And so when we have programs that work really well, you know, I'm just using recognition as an example, when it articulates what a company expects of each employee and sets really defined standards around, you know, how to behave. What are the the you know? What are the roadmaps, let's say, to promotions or to recognition, even public recognition, and then you consist consistently highlight those models, those exemplars. You're giving people a roadmap so they can understand, okay, so I understand, if I act in this way and I do these things, the company will recognize that and highlight me, and they'll say, This is what I need to do to get that visibility. So you have that clarity, you have that transparency, and you have that kind of social norms that people want and to create a following, you know, I think that things go wrong when there is little consistency, when people are seeing other people get ahead, perhaps in ways that aren't modeled or even aren't highlighted, right? It becomes very difficult, and then they will lean on things like, well, you know, it's about the money, or it's a, you know, about politics, and then you they kind of fall back into the to the bad behaviors. So when there's clarity on values, when there's clarity on the behaviors, when there's clarity on this is how I'll get my manager to recognize me and and understand what I need to do. I'll do what I can to really reflect. Those behaviors to move ahead. It's the consistency and the authenticity honestly that goes behind it, and should reduce some of the unintended consequences.

Rick Denton: 20:15

I love that Tamar, and I will say here that it has been proven when guests provide incredibly great content like you've provided to us so far, that I then invite them into the first class lounge. So that is going to be an incentive and a reward for the brilliance that you've given us to the first part of this show. So join me here in the first class lounge. We'll move quickly here and have a little bit of fun. We hope. What is a dream travel location from your past,

Tamar Cohen: 20:42

from my past. So I've done quite a bit of travel. Probably my favorite places were Vietnam and Thailand, just because when I went there, as you know, my early 20s, it was, you know, I was able to spend a month in both places, and really nice everywhere from the islands up to the mountains, hiking, nice, just, Oh, unbelievable. And, of course, you know, I love all of Europe, Australia. I don't know. I can't name one place that's,

Rick Denton: 21:07

yeah, okay, so dream travel location you've been to before is the world got it? Well, what? Okay, so what is a dream travel location you've not been to yet?

Tamar Cohen: 21:21

Brazil. So I haven't been to South America, so yeah, between Brazil and Ecuador, actually, to go to the Galapagos would be amazing.

Rick Denton: 21:28

Yeah, that is Brazil. I've been to with the Galapagos absolutely on the list. Can't wait to see that. What is a favorite thing of yours to eat?

Tamar Cohen: 21:37

So I'm in Hell's Kitchen, which is kind of the Midtown West area of Manhattan, and you cannot go, you know, more than I don't know, 50 feet without hitting an Asian restaurant, particularly Thai food. Yeah. So that's really what I lean into here. That's, it's an absolute go to

Rick Denton: 21:53

Okay, now here's where I'm going to try to sneak this in. Okay, so what is your favorite? It's not in a guidebook. Tourists don't know about this place. You're going to be mad that I'm asking you this question, because now people will know to go here restaurant in Manhattan, something neighborhoody, perhaps.

Tamar Cohen: 22:09

Okay, so you need to like Thai. You need to like fairly spicy food. It is a tiny little hole in the wall, you know, I know everybody says that, but in fact, it is. It is called tongalore. It is on Ninth Avenue, and that's my favorite type place.

Rick Denton: 22:24

Okay, I'm not going to put that in the show notes listeners and viewers, so you're going to have to just consume that and listen hard and head to Tonga lore. Did I say it right? Yeah, but

Tamar Cohen: 22:35

good luck spelling it. So yeah, exactly, yeah. Well,

Rick Denton: 22:40

let's go the other direction. What is something growing up you were forced to eat, but you hate it as a kid?

Tamar Cohen: 22:45

Steak, steak. I never like.

Rick Denton: 22:48

No, I've heard that before to this question, really,

Tamar Cohen: 22:51

I never liked the texture. I never liked the like the gristle. And yes, I've had it in steakhouses. Yes, I've had it this way and that way, and that's awesome. No, I just don't like it. Don't like the texture. Never, did, never.

Rick Denton: 23:05

I love the diversity of answers to these questions. I'm a steak lover. I still celebrate the fact that that's awesome. Hey, all that means is more steak for me. So wonderful. We're a good pair here trying to exit the lounge. What is one travel item not including your phone, not including your passport, that you will not leave home without.

Tamar Cohen: 23:21

So I'm a curly haired girl, and so hair gel, because humidity does very, very bad things when it's not maintained.

Rick Denton: 23:36

Oh, Tamara, I wish that I actually could answer hair gel, yes, I have to put a little paste in the what wisps of hair are left for me. They're not long enough or enough for me to even know whether it's curly or not. So I perhaps envy your one item there. Let's get back to sort of the employee experience thing you had mentioned when we talked earlier this us versus them, and you'd even talked about this example of a behavior. Nobody reads emails with me earlier, sort of, they don't read emails that there's something behind it. So go deeper with me. What did you mean by that, us versus them? Problem?

Tamar Cohen: 24:14

Yeah, it's about getting out of the ivory tower. And it goes back a little bit to what you were just saying about, you know, from the customer experience side, listening to those phone calls and really sort of allowing yourself as an executive, as a practitioner, to remember that it's not all about segmentation. It's not all about targeting regional demographic differences, right? It's really about just getting back out and remembering when you're a consumer, when you're a customer as as an employee, how do you feel? How did you feel? You know, it's very it's easy to be in a leadership position and to kind of go into the abstract, and to kind of just look at everything on numbers, and it's very easy to then say, oh, people are being lazy. They're not really a dad. They're not doing what they need to do. But. Not true. We know that there are biases that limit people of color, that limit women, other marginalized groups. We know that working mothers like myself can be limited when opportunities can't always be jumped upon. And so leaning in to understand why these things, why things are happening, and who they're influencing, and just to step away from the myths, I think, is really important, and to just kind of keep that curious eye always, you know, in the myths that kind of tend to come up, you know, and that nobody reads emails, that that's one that just made me nuts, because I heard that a lot in almost every job that I've ever had, like, Oh, are we communicating because they don't have to read it anyway. But it's unfair, right? What's a better question that we can ask? Why is nobody reading them? And is it really that nobody's reading them? Or is there just a segment of employees that are not reading it? Yeah, are they not reading it? Or are they just not absorbing because we're not being clear? Are we using language that's obfuscating the point, or are we being very sort of transparent and clear to what we were saying before, right? About some of the, you know, unintended consequences. So instead of kind of leaning into the mythologies and to kind of some of these, like, easy dismissive comments, can we just ask smarter questions? Because then we'll get the smarter answers. And that's, that's sort of what I mean by the US versus okay. And

Rick Denton: 26:16

I like that example there too, about the idea of, is it true that nobody, or rather certain segments. I remember a former client. This is years ago, and we were working to transform the in store, retail customer experience. So imagine stores across the country, across actually the globe, technically, and there was a pre existing frustration that elements of communication were not being read, The emails were not being read in the store. Well, this is also the same company that instructed its store managers, we don't want you in the back office. We want you on the floor. We want you engaging with customers. You can't have both worlds. If you want me to consume via email, well, then I can't be sitting out with my customers. And so understanding those segments would really help understand

Tamar Cohen: 27:00

Heck, yeah, yeah. So let me just jump on that, because that actually right. There is the perfect intersection of the customer and the employee experience, yeah, coalition, right, consolidation, right. So you have the employee experience where you want that manager to, you know, be reading these emails, to really understand what it is that they need to do to, you know, get the store functioning properly. But then from the customer experience you want the manager on the floor. People are asking questions. People are asking questions. The employees need support. And so looking at that holistic, getting out of that ivory tower, looking at that holistic view, what's happening to the customers, what's happening to the employees, and how do we reconcile so that we're not getting this poor person, you know, running back and forth from the back office to the floor and, you know, trying to get everything done and then ultimately doing everything poorly, yeah, not because it's their fault. I

Rick Denton: 27:47

love it. I love it. Well there. If you haven't finished the white paper, feel free to quote. Kidding. I may even edit this out. I doubt it, though, that's not my style. We are coming close to the end of our time here, and I want to know a little bit more about kind of the how, because it's great that we're talking about employee experience. It's great that we say that that improves customer experience, although businesses, I guess, aside from really nonprofits, are kind of the business of making business results profits. So how does that linkage from employee experience to customer experience to then the delivery of tangible business results? How are you going to help companies link all of that together?

Tamar Cohen: 28:33

Yeah, it's not easy. So it's not that we have, we have no magic bullet. But you know, part of the excitement that I have around the consultancy that I just launched with my partner is we have four cornerstones, and we lean on Joy value, knowledge and production. So the way that we're stringing this together, to basically answer your question, is when employees have the sense of joy and a sense of purpose and they understand what they're bringing to the organization, they lean into the organization's values. They understand the value that they bring to the company, but also the value that the company brings to them, that they have the right benefits, they have the right support structures to let them really grow and evolve. The knowledge side is the training. How can I grow as a person? How can I move to the next stage of my career? It doesn't even have to be a ladder up. It could be lattice, right? I could be moving to different parts of the organization. But I am increasing my knowledge, and I'm growing and by the way, not just growing for myself, but growing for the company. You're getting people to stay, you're getting people to sort of retain that institutional knowledge even as they navigate across the place. And then finally, to production, which is exactly to what you said. It's that value to the organization making sure that the companies are creating higher value, higher profits. It goes back to that idea that Ed Bastian, the CEO of delta, had around the virtuous cycle right where, if employees are treating customers well, customers will buy more. The stock price will go. Up, the shareholders will be happy and invest more to allow to do what they need to do. So it really is these four cornerstones kind of aligned to that cycle where, if you've got employees that are joyful, they're bringing value, they're increasing their knowledge so they can then increase production, bringing companies, ultimately exponential growth. That's the bottom line. That's what we're trying to drive towards.

Rick Denton: 30:21

End of message that is exactly where we're going to close. What a delightful ride it's been today. I've enjoyed the journey, certainly getting into that emotional the what makes us tick, aspect of employee experience. And I'm looking forward to consuming that white paper. If folks wanted to get to know a little bit more about you, about your consultancy, and maybe even if you already have a place planned for the white paper, what's the best way for them to get in touch and learn more?

Tamar Cohen: 30:47

So the best place would be to start with our website, so myhalo effect.com and I'll make sure that we spell that out. And as far as the White Paper, we're still putting the final, final tweaks on it. Hopefully it'll be you'll see it in LinkedIn in the next couple of weeks, and we'll have information we can, you know, maybe update you when the and the audience once that's ready to go. But my halo effect calm is where we have a lot of other content as well around this topic.

Rick Denton: 31:17

Very good. So I'll definitely get my halo effect calm in the show notes. I'll get your LinkedIn profile there, so folks can be paying it, follow you and pay attention to when that releases. And absolutely show notes can be edited at any old time. So when there's a link to be added, we can absolutely add it. Tamar, it has been a treat today, not only because of what we had to fight to get through to today. I'm excited for that, and I knew I was right that the content that you provided is really, really juicy, and I'm glad that we had this conversation today for being on CX passport. This

Tamar Cohen: 31:50

is wonderful. Thank you so much.

Rick Denton: 31:57

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. If you liked today’s episode I have 3 quick next steps for you Click subscribe on the CX Passport youtube channel or your favorite podcast app Next leave a comment below the video or a review in your favorite podcast app so others can find and and enjoy CX Passport too Then, head over to cxpassport.com website for show notes and resources that can help you create tangible business results by delivering great customer experience. Until next time, I’m Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.