The one with CX the customer would pay for - Karyn Furstman E203

🎤🎞️ “The one with CX the customer would pay for” Karyn Furstman Founder & CEO CustomersFurst in CX Passport Episode 203🎧 What’s in the episode?...

CHAPTERS

0:00 Introduction: Welcoming Karyn Furstman

1:31 Lean Processes and CX: Why it matters

3:40 Embedding CX into daily operations

5:25 Involving leadership in CX transformation

6:18 Where CX should live in an organization

7:51 Avoiding the "CX as a project" trap

11:13 How to succeed without a CX seat at the table

14:20 Tying CX improvements to financial results

17:21 The CX leader as an orchestrator

19:52 First Class Lounge

24:09 Creating real results as a CX leader

27:16 Collaborating with the CFO on CX initiatives

29:58 Leaving corporate America for consulting

31:50 How to connect with Karyn

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I'm Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport

Episode resources:

Karyn LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karynfurstman/

Transcript

Karyn Furstman: 0:00

The most important group is that middle layer of operational leaders, because that group of operational leaders are the people that are doing the work every single day,

Rick Denton: 0:10

customer experience, wisdom, a dash of travel talk. We've been cleared for takeoff. The best meals are served outside and require passport. Welcome back CX passport travelers today we get the chance to talk with Karen Firstman. Karen's got those experienced chops built over 30 years with major brands like Safeco insurance, JP Morgan, Chase and Bank of America driving impactful CX strategies along the way. There's a kindred spirit between Karen and me, not only did we both work at WAMU Washington Mutual back in the day, there is a shared love of process and execution, which are my magic words, possibly my business love language, perhaps, well, now, as the founder and CEO of customers first, Karen focuses on building CX road maps, developing high performing teams and delivering measurable results. Her approach is all about breaking down barriers and creating meaningful connections with customers. I mentioned that WAMU connection. Karen spends most of her time in that glorious Seattle area in the Pacific Northwest, beautiful country up there, and fantastic food. You know how much I love those two factors. I bet some of that sneaks in today's episode. Karen, welcome to CX passport.

Karyn Furstman: 1:31

Thank you, Rick. It's great to be here and great to talk again in another kindred spirit on on a lot of the things that we're going to chat about today.

Rick Denton: 1:39

I, as you had said before, we hit record. Didn't we talk like nine months ago first? It may not have been that long, but this has been a long time coming, and so I've got a lot of excitement, eagerness to get into this. So I mentioned you and I share this heart for process. I joke that I've got a Six Sigma black belt, and I actually earned it at Washington Mutual, and it's gone a bit gray from lack of use. You bring your lean, your process experience, into your customer experience work. Why should companies be thinking with that lean mindset when they consider their experience design?

Karyn Furstman: 2:12

Yeah, it's a great question. And actually, I as well. I'm a black belt and lean certified. I was I at B of A is where I got the Six Sigma. But actually got lean certified when I was in the insurance business with safe co insurance, liberty, mutual, and I think that in both cases, but particularly in Lean, what Lean is, kind of core foundational element is designing things that the customer would pay for. And so as I got to know that world, and as I had built, really a CX transformation and roadmap with the safe co insurance organization over a number of years, and then we brought in the Lean disciplines on top, I was it was almost music to my ears, because it was truly building what we had designed over the last few years and embedding it into the operations of the organization. And so I think that it ultimately, what it does at the end of the day is it takes CX and move it from what sometimes can be perceived and organizations can perceive it as an initiative or project and make it truly a way of working in the organization, which doesn't happen overnight. But I really, really am a huge proponent of some of those concepts that actually get embedded into the organization to drive truly a better customer experience. And

Rick Denton: 3:40

oh my gosh, you can tell I'm stuttering over my words, because there's so much that you said there that got me all wound up. This idea of truly drive results and moving that actual thing forward. What is it that's what is it that's particularly unique about lean that really drives that into that customer experience world, what? What's the kind of that tasty bit that says, All right, this is why we're actually able to get results out of customer experience, because of a lean mindset.

Karyn Furstman: 4:10

Yeah, a couple things. I would say. It is the fact that you are building processes again that the customer would pay for, and truly, the customer is helping you design what you are building. So that's number one, in terms of really bringing in and making decisions and building products and services against truly what the customer would pay for. And there's methodologies underneath it that let you do that. The other thing that I would say, is it, and this was really, really very powerful, is it brings, there's a method, in a way, that brings executive leaders into the process to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. So you think about things like, in the Lean language, go and sees, you're going to see. The various sites and call centers and sales parts of the organization, but there's actual processes and flows that they have to follow, so it was wonderful to give them those tools. So I think it works both from the executive level all the way down to the frontline parts of the organization as well as the back office, with a set of tools that truly drive that customer focus into the process. Oh,

Rick Denton: 5:25

I like that. And that theme of, would the customer pay for it? I remember that fondly from those those days, and that absolutely fits of, hey, look, if the experience and somebody pay for it, then aren't we kind of wasting our time here? And that makes a lot of sense. You mentioned also that idea of it helps kind of bring that, that leadership level, into view leadership, and brings them into that exposure, into that in that kind of same vein, if customer experience isn't its own C level discipline at a company and that that sometimes we see our C level, sometimes we don't, I'm more inclined To see customer experience housed inside of operations. Long time. Listeners, viewers know that's my bias. Is that project management, process improvement, background, yet more companies. I feel like I see it more often in marketing than operations. Why aren't you companies choosing the marketing path and how would you design things? Yeah,

Karyn Furstman: 6:19

if I could count the times that I've had this conversation, I get asked, it's probably one of the most frequent questions I get asked, is, where should customer experience fit? And my first answer that I would say, is that, honestly, there's no right or wrong answer, and it has to depend on the culture of the company and kind of where the power, if you will, or the power core of where, like, a lot of decisions potentially get made. I am a huge proponent, however, of it being in operations, which probably is no surprise to you based on what we're talking about. Yes, I was fortunate enough in the in the multiple times that I led customer experience transformations I was I was fortunate enough to report to the COO so I had a seat at the executive table and in the operations, I have recently seen more organizations that are putting the role into marketing, and I think it just has to you need to figure out a way to make it work. My biggest caution is make sure that the organization understands that it's not a marketing project, and it is different than marketing. And so really being clear about what it is and what it isn't, I think, is important, because, again, if I had my druthers, I would absolutely argue for operations, but you need to really understand where the organization is, and if that decision is made. You as a CX leader, have to work within that, but make sure that it becomes built into the DNA and the fabric of the organization, which is a little harder sometimes, but it can be done for sure.

Rick Denton: 7:51

Hey there, CX Passport travelers. I want to let you know about CX Passport Live. CX Passport Live helps brands amplify their event's impact with the power of live in-person, podcasting. Brands partner with CX Passport Live at their on-site event to help excite attendees, reward high value customers and convert potential customers. Bring a new level of energy and excitement to your event and amplify your brand's impact with CX Passport Live. Learn more at cxpassportlive.com Now back to the show. I want to come back to that there's a theme that you've said that I want to get to first, and you mentioned in slightly different ways, but this idea of make sure the organization doesn't see it as an initiative and as a marketing initiative, or even at the beginning, you were saying just customer experience. Customer Experience is this kind of project to be done? Have you? I guess you must, by design. You must have seen that. Why are companies falling into that trap, and how can a CX leader make sure that they aren't falling into that trap? Yeah,

Karyn Furstman: 8:58

it's a great question. And I think some of it starts with, you know, as a CX leader being brought in or being promoted into the organization. So there's an internal and an external way. And sometimes what I see is that there are, you know, high talent individuals have gone through multiple jobs, and they are put into a CX role. And I think that they need to just, again, understand truly what it is. And so what I would say, in this case, and whether it's in operations or in marketing or in product or in revenue office, the first thing that needs to happen, Rick, is an understanding of what it is and what it isn't. And I think that that is where really education with the organization, not just what customer experience is, but what the role me in that role, what we, or me and my team, is going to help the organization do. And. And that is really important because it level sets, but you need to continually reinforce that as you start building your vision and your roadmap for what you want to be. But I think that that is something that is really, really important, and sometimes I see missed in terms of the work, and then what happens sometimes is because there isn't that clarity, that education, and then the clarity with all parts of the organization up, down and across, then what happens is there's one piece of the work that's being done. So I'll give an example, the voice of the customer program, which is truly one of the biggest things that customer experience has been when you think about right, like we need to listen and act on our customer feedback. That's just one piece of an overall strategy. And so sometimes what I've seen is, if that work is done, and let's say, a voice of customer program is launched, the organizations gets tired because they're not exactly sure what else is going to need to be done to truly drive it into the operation. So it kind of goes back to this whole, how do you actually build it into the DNA? And then, from the comment I just made, I think it's also about building a strategy and a roadmap so the organization can rally behind it, which is critical.

Rick Denton: 11:13

There's, there's a lot in like that, that idea, the and act right? The voc program, if it is just the Listen side of it. Well, that's great. You got the voice, the customers, the and act. And that's the tricky, or can be the tricky part of weaving it into organization. So let's take a I set up a scenario earlier where the CX, the CX leader, didn't, wasn't a C level, didn't have that seat at the table. That happens plenty as well. So what are you saying to that CX leader? How are you advising those CX leaders that they don't have that seat, but they're still responsible for influencing the company, educating all the things that you said about getting it embedded in the DNA. How do you help them find success?

Karyn Furstman: 11:55

Yeah, it's a it's a great question, and it is, I think I'd start with understanding again, where that CX individual reports, and so the leader of the CX director, or what, what have you, has to be also part of the solution. So in the example of marketing, right? You know, oftentimes a CX leader, as you're saying, we see, will be in the marketing organization, it will report to the CMO or the head of marketing, and I think one thing is making sure that his or her boss understands and helps define that vision and mandate with them, because they're going to be the person taking it forward many times to their peers at the executive team. I also have suggested that that that CX leader is on the ongoing agenda for the executive leadership team on a monthly basis, so that they're they're still seen as visible. It's not about the person being visible. It is about the work, right? And and I think that why that becomes critical is because those executive leaders have to also empower that CX leader to work with the folks on their teams, right? And so that's where it gets really important, about breaking down some of those silos, but not being the person that says, Well, I'm doing this because so and so said so. So it is, I will tell you, it is definitely harder to drive this work forward when you don't have that visibility in that seat. So I coach on trying to build that visibility into the existing rhythms of business that the organization has as as they build that strategy again and that roadmap, and constantly providing updates and inputs into that roadmap as well. What?

Rick Denton: 13:51

Okay, when you the input, the updates, the seat at the the advisory, the the leadership that that I want to poke at that just a little bit, if I'm walking in that, what have you seen be the most successful as far as what is brought to that meeting when it comes to influence, I'm at that I've got my monthly session. How can I really bring change or bring influence in an organization without that formal authority?

Karyn Furstman: 14:20

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a big question, because it's before you get to that phase, right? It's the initial work of, what are we trying to do here? And kind of going back to that level setting of definitions about what this is and what this isn't, and working across the organization, I'm always a big believer, because you never come into any organization, whether you're internal or external, you're never coming into a blank slate, right? So I'm a huge believer in not coming in and throwing everything out and starting again. So you need to first do an assessment of where the organization is today, and understanding kind of your base level of CX. To maturity. So I start with an understanding and a listening session. And it becomes very much about then defining those objectives upfront. So first defining a strategy in terms of what do we want to be and how are we going to get there, which is what that roadmap is. So I just say that because that upfront work is so important, because that becomes your north star of what then you are bringing forward to the organization as you go into some of those different meetings, whether they're monthly business reviews or staff meetings, etc, what I would say is it's it's less about kind of update on projects, although you want to show that you're making progress against a roadmap, but you're constantly bringing that voice of the customer into those meetings, but not just for the sake of bringing the voice in. You're talking about it in the way of going back to our friend. You know the operations. What are we doing today that is driving delight for our customers, because I always want to make sure that we're talking about positives as well. And then what are we doing to drive pain with our customers? And that becomes a part of, on the on the VOC side, the huge opportunity for where you're trying to act on the feedback and fix and prevent it from happening in the future. And that's truly where bringing some of that work forward to cross functional teams, if they're bigger things that need to be fixed, but really showing how you're driving improvements, whether it's along a journey, if you've defined the journey steps and or through what the customer voice is telling you.

Rick Denton: 16:42

So let me take that another step further. I mentioned not having a seat at the leadership table, but imagine you've been brought in customers first, right? So every company values their customer, but they might not necessarily have a customer experience team. So in a scenario where you've been brought in either in your pre consulting experience or your actual consulting experience. Have you seen this idea of experience being a thing that needs to be done, but they're not being a team involved, and you've seen it be successful, and if so, how were those companies making success there? Yeah,

Karyn Furstman: 17:21

I have always been a believer and seen that the initial work, especially of a one person, is to be and I love the word orchestrator, because I believe that as the CX leader, with or without a team, what you're doing is you're bringing people together against a common objective, and you're orchestrating that work going forward. I think it is very difficult if there is, let's just say, in your example, the organization wants to drive more successful customer experience, and they want to do it without anybody that is a little more difficult, and you might say like you, because you really don't have a champion. So if, if you're talking about, you know, team versus no team, I've, I've worked in and coached with organizations who are individual contributors in that role, and it absolutely can be done. I have never been a big believer, honestly, of big customer experience teams, because, as influencers and orchestrators, what we should be doing is teach. I call it teaching the fish to fish, right? We're trying to build the capability into the organization. And what I always used to say to my you know, then small team, or small teams in the different organizations is, you know, and this makes some people nervous, is, we're working our way out of a job, because could it be done in the long run, where you don't have, like, an actual one person, ideally, but it's a journey, and it takes a while to do that. So you're orchestrating, you're teaching, you're watching your coaching, to see them do it on their own, versus having a huge team that is doing everything from a central place.

Rick Denton: 19:16

Karen, Wow, that's some powerful words there. The idea of there's not a lot of folks that would advocate hey, look, hey, I don't really like the big teams. I want the small and I definitely see the logic in what you're describing. Of it can become a behemoth in and of itself. And there's probably a lot of companies that have the big teams like well, though, those are the ones that go do that. And so I can see the value in that small team. Karen, I want to take a little break with you here. It's a chance for us. The first class lounge. So I want to invite you here into the first class lounge. We'll move quickly here and have a little bit of fun. What is a dream travel location from your past?

Karyn Furstman: 19:52

Easy one for me, for a big milestone birthday, I went to the Maldives. It was something I dreamed about for my entire life, and it was. Just exceeded all my expectations, and I had pretty high ones, incredible,

Rick Denton: 20:04

man. I see so often, like, that's kind of like the the Ultimate Trip, especially in some of the the mileage points groups that I'm like, you know, they're like, Okay, so it's 365, days so you can get your over the water bungalow with points. I have to imagine that just was stunning. How long did it take y'all to sort of plan that

Karyn Furstman: 20:23

trip? Oh, planning about not, not too long planning, but getting there from the West Coast, on the other hand, was quite, quite, quite lengthy. But I'm a diver, and it was just to be in those waters, and diving was a dream come true for

Rick Denton: 20:37

me. I'm very jealous of some of my other hemisphere friends, when they talk about places that they get to go to a lot easier than those of us in the Western Hemisphere get to go to. So I can appreciate that long, long flight, and hopefully you had a chance for some lounges along the way. What about a place you haven't been to yet? What's a dream travel location you've not been to? There's

Karyn Furstman: 20:56

there's quite a few places. But I think next on the bucket list, if you will, is Australia and New Zealand, another hard place, hard places to get to, right? But I definitely want to. I haven't planned it yet, but I definitely want to make some strides to get there in the next couple of years. I

Rick Denton: 21:13

like that, yeah, oddly enough, I haven't been there either, and I'm looking forward to getting down under, if you will, at some point. I mentioned Pacific Northwest, having great food. So don't let that bias you here. But what is one of your favorite things to eat?

Karyn Furstman: 21:26

So first, I'll say it's anything spicy. I'm a spice pound. I absolutely love spicy food. I think I've ruined my three boys because I you know, it's cooked and definitely like have sponsored a lot of spicy foods. I like the Thai food, Chinese food, anything of like Asian, Indian but probably Thai food, I would say, is one of my favorite in terms of kind. But anything spicy, even if it's barbecue or anything, it's got to be spicy. I probably ruined my taste buds. I

Rick Denton: 22:00

like that. I actually, of all things, I had a there was a football game that my son and I went to on Monday. It was a championship game, and so we went someplace to eat before, and it was a grilled cheese brisket sandwich. And the guy said, well, but we normally include jalapenos in there. Do you want him like, yeah, what the jalapenos in the grilled cheese sandwich? And it was good. So have you had the chance to go to Thailand? Speaking of Thai food,

Karyn Furstman: 22:19

no, that's another one on the bucket list, right behind Australia, New Zealand. Yeah, just do both stay on that side of the world. Just my 25 year old son has been and I haven't. So

Rick Denton: 22:29

it's a good to go. Okay, what about growing up? Was there something you were forced to eat that you just absolutely hated as a kid?

Karyn Furstman: 22:41

You know, I really like most all foods, and I there was really never anything I was forced. I will say I have a strong memory of not forced, but trying a raw oyster for the first time with my parents. We were on a trip in Vancouver, and it was something about the consistency or something. They didn't force me, but I tried it and it just it was not something that I liked it as a child. I actually do more enjoy them now as an adult, but that was something that had last seen memory on me

Rick Denton: 23:12

that would be a very hard item to accept as a kid. Yeah, I love them as adult, but I can think kid brain would be looking at them. No, I'm not putting that in my mouth. No way. Karen, sadly, it's time to leave the lounge. What is one travel item not including your phone, not including your passport, that you will not leave home without

Karyn Furstman: 23:32

my Kindle. I'm a huge reader, so my Kindle for sure. You

Rick Denton: 23:43

Karen got to have something to keep you entertained on that long flight to Australia, so I can see how the Kindle made that list. That makes a lot of sense to me. I want to get really tactical here. You were a customer experience leader, and you were a customer experience leader at some significant brands in that corporate world. What elements Did you find just particularly vital to your success in those roles. How did you create real results and real influence?

Karyn Furstman: 24:09

Another great question, first and foremost, it was really important to tie the work we were doing not just to loyalty results, like an NPS or CSAT score. Of course, that was one piece of it, but it was early on showing the value and the opportunity for the work and translate that into and continue to monitor results, financial results. So in other words, what we what we did early on, was said, Okay, if we want to move forward and increase our NPS, what does that mean in terms of retention? What does that mean in terms of, in our case, cross sell and some of those key business metrics and set targets and showed how those things. Work together and actually drove those improvements, because it's speaking to the organization in the language and the things that are really important, not that loyalty is not important. But oftentimes what I see is people say we want to, we want to engage our organization by taking MPs from 50 to 60, and it's like, what's the excitement for me as an employee, to get up and go to work every day. Not a lot, right? So I think that is one. I think the other was one of the others was, I alluded to it before, but it was to really kind of get the organization on all levels involved in the work, whether I was an executive leader, like a chief product officer, who we had become one of the sponsors of one of our key journeys, the renewal journey insurance, but but to have them understand and make it real for them. So at the executive level, at the frontline level, of course, they're seeing it every day. They're, they're, they're dealing with the customer happiness and pain points every single day. So like how to make it real for them. But probably the most important group is that middle layer of operational leaders. And kind of goes back to our process discussion, because that group of operational leaders are the people that are doing the work every single day. So it's really important to engage all three of those kind of layers, if you will, cross functionally in the work and being part of the solution again, which goes back to some of the lean concepts that we talked about earlier. Gotta

Rick Denton: 26:35

hit all of that that, that idea of making really like that. Focus on that middle layer. And there's an element of front line in that as well. When you talk about actually doing the work, because it's one thing to have a journey map crafted somewhere off in a conference room. It's another thing to see it executed on the front lines like that. And that idea of tying it to find it, the idea of tying it to financial results, makes a lot of sense to me, it gets really hard. Did you find? Let me ask you differently, actually. How did you approach discovering the tie between a customer experience improvement, a customer experience measure, and something that the CFO would care about?

Karyn Furstman: 27:16

I made the CFO my best friend. I mean, honestly, like, worked

Rick Denton: 27:20

with them, Episode over,

Karyn Furstman: 27:23

worked with them very early on to kind of help define, or in multiple cases, because I've done it, whether it's the CFO or the folks on the team to say, this is what we're trying to accomplish. What are the business metrics that are most closely tied and, you know, in insurance and even in banking, to that degree layer you've got, you know, your your retention efforts that are really important, and kind of that core concept around, you know, acquiring a new customer is way more expensive than keeping one, and then you want to keep one, keep them and grow them. So really talking about it and working in the language they understand. So working with them together, around saying, This is what we aspire to do, and making them also, whether it was Product Officer or financial officer, making them part of the work. I think, as I mentioned, you know, on the on one of the renewal experiences that was huge, right, like the renewal journey in and of itself, if you think about insurance, is huge, making this the the leaders. So in that case, the chief product officer, this business sponsor of that work, because they were the ones that were saying, Ooh, we're not sure what we how we want to evolve this renewal experience. So by making them the sponsor, it really, it really brought them along the journey, for sure. Okay,

Rick Denton: 28:41

I really like that idea. And certainly I love the idea clearly, hey, look, I was just making my best friend. But in that theme, what I'm hearing is this idea of CO creating, right? It's not a lot of times CX leaders, CX teams, think about how can I present this to, rather than how can I craft this with and I think that's something that you're really drawing out here. That makes a lot of sense to

Karyn Furstman: 29:05

me. That's how I feel. I've been successful in my whole career, whether it be a true operational role, I've led huge operation organizations and had a lot of influencing roles, and in either case, you have to influence and and work collaboratively together.

Rick Denton: 29:20

That makes a lot of sense. Karen, I want to close out, we're almost out of time here. It's a it's a slightly different question. It's not really about customer experience. But you've done, I did a similar evolution. You've done an evolution where you spent years, decades inside the corporate world and then moved into the independent world we're in this time you and I recording this in January of 2025. People are thinking about new visions, new ideas, new improvements, big changes, all that, setting visions for themselves. What is it about corporate America that inspired you to go out on your own and create your consulting business?

Karyn Furstman: 29:58

Yeah, I think I. You know, been in corporate America for quite a number of years, and I felt as I was approaching a point in my career where I said, I really want to be able to give back what I've learned, the things that I've done that I feel are successes, the things that were challenging, kind of the scars on my back, and I want to work with people new leaders, whether they're new coming up in their career, or they're established leaders who are taking on additional responsibility, whether it be CX or customer experience and employee experience, and be able to to work with them and coach them to build successful organizations, to drive kind of CX into the organization, but make it part of the business fabric, and as we talked about and truly bringing some of those lean concepts and helping them with their even continuous improvement efforts. So I feel like I between my operations and lean experience, as well as customer experience, it's a great combination to to make it real for those leaders that I'm working with and coaching to be successful in not just their role, but to help make their organization successful and to make their own personal career rewarding. Because I found a career when I kind of got into customer experience by happenstance. About 2530 years ago, I found a career. That's my passion career, and so I'm, I'm very, very excited always to work with people to to build their capabilities. In that sense, that's

Rick Denton: 31:33

awesome. We're gonna leave it right there. Karen, that's I love ending right there. Karen, if folks wanted to get to know a little bit more about customer first, your approach to customer experience? Hey, talk process, shop or even Hey, what's the best restaurant in Seattle? What's the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Karyn Furstman: 31:50

I have customers first website that it's customers first, f u, r, s, t, which is a play on my last name, just FYI, and it's Karen at customers first Comm, and feel free to reach out to me at any time. I'm on LinkedIn, both personally as well as my business and my website is there as well. So we'd love to chat more with folks. As you can tell, I have a true passion for this work, so thanks for having me today.

Rick Denton: 32:16

Yeah, no, I loved having you on the show. I will get listeners, viewers, you know, scroll down, click the link. Don't even hit pause. You can just click that link. You're taken to Karen's LinkedIn profile or to customer first website. Karen, I did it. Certainly. I was looking forward to a conversation with a a fellow process and operations enthusiast. I also appreciated going further into those spaces around influence and the real tactical elements of how you as a leader really drove actual, honest to God, tangible results. This has been an absolute delight for me. Karen, thank you for being on CX passport.

Karyn Furstman: 32:51

Thanks, Rick, what a delight.

Rick Denton: 32:58

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. If you liked today’s episode I have 3 quick next steps for you Click subscribe on the CX Passport youtube channel or your favorite podcast app Next leave a comment below the video or a review in your favorite podcast app so others can find and and enjoy CX Passport too Then, head over to cxpassport.com website for show notes and resources that can help you create tangible business results by delivering great customer experience. Until next time, I’m Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.