The one with the climate of CX - Jeff Louden Digital Product Manager E205

🎤🎞️“The one with the climate of CX” with Jeff Louden Digital Product Manager at The Baldwin Group  in CX Passport Episode 205🎧 What’s in the episode?...

CHAPTERS

0:00 Introduction: Welcoming Jeff Louden

1:43 From CX Open to Work to New Job Success story

2:30 What CX professionals should focus on in 2025

4:15 Gauging the climate of CX in your organization

7:50 Navigating the open-to-work journey in a shifting CX landscape

10:27 Overcoming the challenges of CX job titles and roles

13:07 The "doesn't suck" standard for customer experience

15:03 Understanding and adapting to organizational climates

18:55 First Class Lounge

23:25 Why bad experiences still happen in business

26:07 Collaborating to overcome customer experience challenges

29:02 Lessons for aspiring product managers

31:27 Where to connect with Jeff

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I'm Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport

Episode resources:

Jeff LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffrey-louden/

Transcript

Jeff Louden: 0:00

We talk a lot about culture, creating CX culture, customer first and yada yada. But something that's often not talked about is, what is the climate customer

Rick Denton: 0:09

experience wisdom, a dash of travel talk. We've been cleared for takeoff. The best meals are served outside and require passport. Today I am pleased to introduce Jeff Loudon, Digital Product Manager at the Baldwin group, backed by his hands on approach in product management and data analysis. Jeff brings real change to customer journeys. Now here's something unique for Jeff's appearance. Haven't had this happen before? We originally had Jeff scheduled to do a CX open to work. Episode, back in September 2024, days before we were scheduled to record, Jeff landed his new gig. Nothing makes me happier than when we can't record a CX open to work episode because the guest found their next opportunity. Thankfully, we were able to arrange for Jeff to join the show several months after that great news, and that several months is now with roles at companies like Stanley, Black and Decker and Indiana Farmers Mutual Insurance. Jeff has developed and implemented strategies that connect customer insights with practical solutions. His experience in creating customer experience programs, journey mapping and service blueprinting has consistently led to improved customer satisfaction and and business growth, folks, if you're watching and certainly if you're listening, you're experiencing Jeff's podcast worthy setup. The guy has actual honest to goodness radio experience. So today might be the Battle of the voiceover actors. Let's see what today holds. Jeff, welcome to CX passport. Good

Jeff Louden: 1:43

morning, Rick, and thank you for having me really excited to be here and the conversation we're gonna have. So super

Rick Denton: 1:51

stoked. Yeah, and already did you hear that? Folks like it was a mixture of, you got a little bit of NPR. You got a little bit of pop radio. Jeff's got the range. This is going to be fun today. I'm looking forward to Jeff. I did say that we rescheduled, which brought us to this period where you and I are recording here in late January, kind of that those the last of the first few weeks of the year. January is always about vision and goal setting, but that's starting to fade away. Now we're deep into the real work. What should a CX professional be doing right now, tasks influence. Let's get past the buzzwords and into actual tactics. What should a CX person be doing right now in 2025

Jeff Louden: 2:31

understanding the climate of their organization, that's always going to be kind of the number one thing. And we talk a lot about CX, and you know, there's plenty of thought leadership out there, talking about culture, creating a CX culture customer first, and yada yada yada. But something that's often not talked about is, what is the climate? And that's where we're gaging what the temperature is. And I would imagine, at least in my experience, what I have seen is different parts of the organization have different temperature and they all have their own priorities that they're working on. And so how as CX professionals, can we contribute to what exactly it is that they're doing they're going to be implement, let's just pull something out of the air and say that there's, you know, we've got a CRM implementation, or we're going to be, you know, going in, doing some other kind of thing. That's fantastic. That's great news. Okay, they have obvious business reason for it. We want to keep our contacts for our sales leads and yada yada yada. But how is a CX professional? Could we contribute to making that implementation as customer centric of an implementation as possible, so understanding the climate of what's going on inside of the organization, understanding where the appetite is, and then finding ways to collaborate and CO create with them, I think, is far more important than deploying surveys out into the measuring the impact of oh, we changed the wording in this one experience, or we added this additional leaflet into the package that we're sending out. And now you know our our CSAT scores have bumped five points. So let's go find the next thing to bump a CSAT score. We're business partners. That's what we're there to do. Oh,

Rick Denton: 4:16

obviously you caught me in a chuckle there that I anytime you hear about the survey. So, yes, right? I know that we're certainly living in a post survey world, in that appetite. Tell me though not tell me though. Tell me how a six person should gage that climate. I love that you're saying climate because it's similar to, it's adjacent to, it's related to. What are the business priorities? What is the business strategy? Bill stakos talks about the first document you should ever read and a new job as a CX person is the business strategy, five year plan of a company. Well, okay, now we're talking about kind of almost more tactical this climate. What's the way to get at that climate and know that you're reading, well, the temperature, the thermostat, the thermometer, correctly.

Jeff Louden: 4:59

Yeah. There's there's two things. One, it takes a significant amount of courage, and what I mean by that is by actively finding people in your your work day org chart, people that you know you regularly interface with, and asking for referrals to other people inside of your your organization. So it takes courage to do that, and then the flip side of that is going to take humility and a lot of thought to be asking questions and listening. You know, the most important thing to do is create a well crafted question. So if you know you're asking, I don't know, let's say you meet with your sales your sales leads or whatever. Ask them, you know, so what do you see like? You know, if you had a magic wand and you're able to predict the future in three years, what does that look like for us? You know, what are the kinds of things that you're going to be driving toward? And, you know, those kinds of questions. Then start to open relationship, but then shut up and listen to what they have to say and bridge and then take a take a step back to figure out, okay, well, me and my role. How can I can contribute to what they're trying to accomplish? Okay, their role.

Your CX Passport Captain: 6:13

This is your captain speaking. I want to thank you for listening to CX Passport today. We’ve now reached our cruising altitude so I’ll turn that seatbelt sign off. <ding> While you’re getting comfortable, hit that Follow or Subscribe button in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. I’d love it if you’d tell a friend about CX Passport and leave a review so that others can discover the show as well. Now, sit back and enjoy the rest of the episode.

Rick Denton: 6:39

That okay, that I get it. And you know, what's interesting about a lot of times when I ask a question in a show like this, is there's sort of a well, duh, right? Of course, why wouldn't you do what you're describing there? Ask what the the objectives are, ask how they intend to get it, what is their vision for it, and then shut up and listen. And yet, we don't do that a lot. And so along with it being insightful, it's also an incredibly healthy reminder of, hey, you know, this is how CX professionals can actually be successful and deliver real value for their company. Which gets me to what I wanted to ask you about, because I talked about you and I hadn't intended to bring you on as an open to work, which I'm so glad we were able to change that reason. I do know that that was, like all folks, that's a hard season to go through that open work. The CX industry was really at a decline, and it was not viewed as what we hope that it can be a place to activate and deliver real business value. It's still going through pretty major shock waves, starting back 23 early 24 when you went into this job change season, what was your mindset going in there? How did you navigate through that open to work stage?

Jeff Louden: 7:51

Well, there's a few things, I think, from a professional standpoint, what I needed to do. And what I did do was an audit of my skill set. What is, you know, what are the things that I'm particularly good at? Well, you know, like Clifton Strengths and, you know, personality, kinds of things is, you know, what? What's my demeanor? What do I bring to the table? Apparently, strategic thinking is, like a number one thing doesn't mean that I'm the best strategic thinker, but I am a strategic thinker, and that's my, my, you know, one of my, my strengths, but really understanding where, you know, of the successes that I've had in my career, especially in this profession of customer experience and, you know, product management or data analysis. It's like I've got this buffet and smore smorgasbord. I don't even know if those exist anymore, and

Rick Denton: 8:40

now everybody runs to their dictionary and their dictionary, oh my gosh, did I just date myself? Goes to their Google, their complexity, and says, What is smorgasbord,

Jeff Louden: 8:49

right? So imagine a buffet. There we go, of different skills, and, you know, compiling those into creating what the story is of the value that I bring to an organization. And I can tell you that, you know, job seeking is extremely difficult, you know, to a certain degree, it's a numbers game, but you gotta basically be a salesperson. You're a sales and marketing person. So what is your unique value proposition in the marketplace? What do you bring to it? And then I think there's also a challenge, and people always make these analogies to like dating, and I, you know, would certainly not want to be dating in 2025 thank God I'm married and wife. But there's a lot of different companies that I was able to to talk to. You know, got a number of interviews, and I I saw organizations that had a very sales focused CX culture or mindset. I had ones that were very customer service oriented. So even within different organizations, the focus of where CX is and the name. Narratives that exist inside those companies have different slants and flavors to them. So it was a matter of finding where the overlap is. But ultimately, it's the skills, and I really didn't pay attention to job titles, it's organization has a need, you know, to improve this, this, this and this, and they need somebody that knows how to do that, that, that and that, and then it's just reading the job descriptions and making the connections and submitting recipes. Well,

Rick Denton: 10:27

that that triggers an absolute thought in my head, and that is this idea that you're talking about, okay, do your skills inventory, then understand the company, even where you're describing the company itself has different definitions of what customer experience is, or different flavors of it, maybe different emphasis points, different angles that they want to use customer experience to advance either sales or experience or operations or revenue, or whatever it might be. Then you said the titles went and that is a huge issue, I think in the customer experience world, is that and well, it actually serves me really well as a host of CX passport, because I get to speak to a wide spectrum of folks, because the definition of customer experience is that wide. But as a job seeker, it's got to be incredibly difficult to find that next opportunity because of titles. How did you alluded to it? How did that really affect your job hunt and what you're doing right now? Well,

Jeff Louden: 11:19

so I would say that what I did was I essentially created searches that highlighted specific specific skills. So if a job requisition had journey mapping in it, I had a search that would show me the jobs that had journey mapping inside of it. So, I mean, this is effectively, like, you know, keyword searching and then creating alerts through the tools that are available, and then I'd look at the job description. You had

Rick Denton: 11:51

to go through that challenge of wading through the morass. I don't even know if I'm pronouncing that right, but the just swamp of titles. How did that affect the job and the role that you've landed now? When you think of the title of your job right now, does it match what you thought you'd be doing? Does the title apply? Has has that sort of influenced how you approach your current role? Yeah,

Jeff Louden: 12:16

um, that's that's really interesting, because I don't know that I necessarily put a significant amount of weight on it. Because, you know, I'm currently called in my position is a digital product manager, and that profession and product management is as varied as what there is in CX, yeah. So ultimately, you know, the I think some of the objectives are the same with being able to find ways to gain adoption of the products that are being created, reduced churn. Have good experiences, not necessarily seamless. I mean, we can throw all of the adjectives at them that we want, but what we're looking for are experiences that at least don't suck.

Rick Denton: 13:07

I like that. Well, you know what's sad, though I like it. And yet, I'm gonna say, is that sad that that's the bar?

Jeff Louden: 13:12

Go ahead. Yeah, I would say it is, and it isn't because there are certain things I'm in insurance. Who wants to get excited about insurance now, Royal Caribbean cruise, yeah, yeah, I'm all about that, right? There are just certain things that we as humans have to do, that we have no other alternative. We like. We have to go to the BMV to get our license renewed, we have to go to the entire experience. That sucks.

Rick Denton: 13:45

Yeah, I'm sorry. Maybe I'll let it.

Jeff Louden: 13:47

But what I mean to say is those, those things that we have to do that we don't like to do, they can at least not suck. Yeah? And that's kind of what I guess I mean there, yeah.

Rick Denton: 14:01

That makes that actually especially when you talk about the variety, like, if the experience doesn't suck on Royal Caribbean, which is interesting, because I'm not a cruiser, but we'll just stick with that example. Well, I would say that means that I didn't fall off the boat and he didn't get sick, and I got to see the sights that I wanted to see. I expect, though, a lot more than that. I think you're right, that experience not sucking is a pretty low and unambitious bar for a hospitality space, but an insurance and actually makes a lot of sense, because all I really want to know is that when it comes time, God willing or actually preferred, that I never have a claim. But if that happens, that it is an incredibly simple and smooth experience that simply doesn't suck, and that makes sense. Can

Jeff Louden: 14:42

I, if I may, to add a little bit on top of that as well is, I think, the one of the mindsets that I have with this as well, as you know, what I may not have, or we may not have delighted you today, but we certainly didn't piss you off today. We need. Can ruin your day.

Rick Denton: 15:03

Let's let that sit for a second. I like that. I like and you know, there's, there is a strong argument. I've said a sentence like this, and others have too. I'm not claiming this to be a Rick original or anything like that, but I would find that it is better to be consistently good than occasionally great, and I would much rather interact with a company that is consistently good than you know, occasionally is great, but then the good part of it isn't there, Jeff. I do want to, I don't want to miss this opportunity. And I know listeners, viewers, y'all can hear it too. There's, there's a little bit of hiccup, not with Jeff set up, but a little bit with the recording tool today. So I apologize for any of that stuff. But when you're hearing him at the technology best, you know that Jeff has these radio chops. So I want to go back to that day. It can be customer experience related. It cannot be customer experience related. I don't know, because the my radio experience was college radio. It was a two to 5am on a Wednesday. I can assure you, no one listened other than me and the guy that was in the studio with me. And then in high school, I did an internship at a station, and the closest I got to being on air was when the DJ had one of those Friday lunch promotions, and it came back a few two martinis in. And so it was relying on me to be doing the stuff on air. Radio has a lot of interesting stories. Take me back to the days that you were in radio. What was that like? Any, any of your favorite memories or stories that you had from those days? Gosh,

Jeff Louden: 16:25

I mean, it was the way back machine. Rick,

Rick Denton: 16:31

were you playing vinyl like it was that kind of way back? No, we had

Jeff Louden: 16:35

compact discs. Okay, compact discs, yes, and you know, it was in, it was in my high school, and I was part of the program for three out of the four years that I was I was in high school and had the opportunity to all some of the sports, high school sports games and play by play stuff you were doing I was, I was more on the color side. And as I've gotten older, I can understand why my teacher was like, You know what? Even though you tried out for play by play, you seem to be a lot better for the color commentating. So

Rick Denton: 17:09

you're the Tom Brady the Troy Aikman of NFL. So the color commentator often has the bigger brand,

Jeff Louden: 17:16

yeah. And I sometimes I also sound like John Madden in that, you know, when the team with the highest score wins, delivering some of those insights, right? So that's what I tie it to. But I absolutely loved it, and I still, even to this day, have moments where, if I hear myself say, then I'm immediately going to be self conscious of that and critical of uttering and because it was all about making sure your sentences, you know, went went, went well and so, but we had a lot of fun with it. It was really cool to do sports shows on the on the weekends. It was cool to be able to do morning shows for, you know, people coming to school or whatever, and then also, even just the afternoons of taking requests and putting people on the radio and having conversations with people on the radio. But I really did enjoy doing the sports I stuck with the, you know, I went through junior varsity up into varsity, and so that gave me and my co host or broadcast partner the ability to dig deep in what we were calling and saying, oh, yeah, so and so did this from this game Black back in blah, blah, blah, whatever. So we got some awards for what we did, and we were real proud of it, but definitely understand and keep a lot of presentation stuff. You know, the radio skill comes into play, and you know what we learned there from that? And so I absolutely loved it.

Rick Denton: 18:55

Yeah, Jeff, I love, I love the radio. And yeah, you and I actually, and it's probably just somewhat self indulgent. As a podcast host, I probably would want to spend more time there than our listeners and viewers would. So instead, I'm going to invite you into the first class lounge. We're going to stop here, take a little break and move quickly, but have a little fun. What is a dream travel location from your past? From

Jeff Louden: 19:24

the past is always going to be the beach, and so long as it's white sand and clear water, yeah, we're in a good spot. You know, DOS, DOS, cervezas, changing our latitude, as it were, for the the corona commercials, uh, some books and, you know, just, just the warm weather. So my wife and I really love that type of vibe, yeah, and that's, that's where we well,

Rick Denton: 19:51

okay, magnifico, so I am very much on board with that. In fact, the joke that I make, and again, I mentioned, we're recording. Us in late January, a month ago, people were talking about White Christmas. Well, the only white Christmas that I ever want to really experience is a white sand beach Christmas in Australia, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, something like that. That gets me on a white sand rather than a white snow. Those are some places I want to head to. What is a dream travel location you've not been to yet, Japan.

Jeff Louden: 20:21

That is a bucket list item. We want to go to Japan. We want to see the cherry blossoms and all of that experience, experience Japanese culture. And so that's, that's something that is on our bucket list. Love it,

Rick Denton: 20:36

you and you didn't say it, but the food is spectacular. Listeners, viewers, I know you've heard me talk about it too much, so I'm not going to mention Japan. I love it. One of my it, one of my favorite destinations that we've been to. So yes, Jeff, Get thee to a Japan re as quickly as possible, because it is awesome. There. I mentioned food. What is a favorite thing of yours to eat? I

Jeff Louden: 20:53

like burgers. I'm really simple. And so I will, you know, consume significant amount of burgers in a week, probably two to three at least. So that's always and then, you know, the there's a chain locally, or, well, kind of regionally here, called Culvers. Yeah, there you go. And they have these concrete mixers. And for anybody that's that's listening, I strongly recommend brownie chunks and raspberry into a vanilla base.

Rick Denton: 21:24

Scroll down, get to the covers link, and maybe I'll find a way to have an affiliate link there as well. So any concrete mix that you order doesn't quite work that way. Jeff, the other direction, not a burger, not a concrete mixer, but I imagine there was something you were forced to eat growing up, but you hated as a kid.

Jeff Louden: 21:41

Yeah, I really wasn't bad with vegetables. It was fruits. Not a fan. So, you know, oranges or, you know, peaches, not, none of that stuff. Okay,

Rick Denton: 21:55

so some of the sweet favorites that a lot of folks have, I love, I love the variety of that answer. Jeff, it is going to be time for us to leave the lounge here. What is one travel item, not including your phone, not including your passport, that you will not leave home without sunglasses?

Jeff Louden: 22:11

Absolutely hands down, sunglasses, I have light colored eyes. They're very sensitive to light, and so whenever the sun is out, the shades are on.

Rick Denton: 22:28

Jeff, one of these days I'm gonna have to. I've been doing this for four years, and I still haven't quite figured out fair use, but right now, as soon as you said that I'm hearing ZZ tops, go ahead and get yourself a pair of cheap sunglasses playing in the back of my ear, because I guarantee that song is being spun at ko BJ FM Austin when I was interning there. So it's stuck in my head. I'd be playing it now, if I could understand exactly how to listeners, viewers and embryo are copyright liars. And want to give me some free advice, please hit me up. Jeff, actually, in all seriousness, that when we were talking about the first class lounge, and when we were talking about your phrase of the experience doesn't suck like as that being the baseline, I gotta imagine that nobody shows up to work and says, I really hope that I create a bad experience today. I mean, of course, except for airline seat design and seat pitch calculation and analysts, they're the exception. Aside from them, though I imagine that bad design isn't the intent. So why are we so riddled with so many bad experiences as customers?

Jeff Louden: 23:25

That's a fantastic question, and I think it's almost like the ultimate question, right? What is the meaning of life, the universe and everything? Which is 42 but then not withstanding, I can only theorize as to how that ends up happening. And I think that there's, there's a moving call, thank You for Smoking. And I'm reminded of the main character, Aaron Eckert played this, this character, and said something to the effect, and repeat this line multiple times, is that everybody has a mortgage. So, you know, there, there are pressures that come on to people in in their roles. And there are, you know, different kinds of cultures that organizations have, that some may be more command and control, or, you know, it's top down versus, you know, bottom up. And you know, a lot of those things go into the minutia of making decisions, and you know what the outputs of those decisions are. So I don't believe that people intentionally make bad experiences. I have found in the organizations that I have worked in a significant contingent of people that want to do the best that they can with. You know what they've got, and they want to, you know, they do recognize opportunities and how to improve the experience. And I think it just comes down to leadership in many ways. So, you know, I don't know if it's that cost pressures. And you know, immediately in people's heads, they think that, Oh, I've got less money to do something, therefore it's just going to. Suck. And I don't know that I necessarily, at face value, accept that as as you know, a direct outcome is that, you know, the cheaper it is, the worse the experience is going to be. And I don't know that it necessarily has to be that

Rick Denton: 25:12

way. Oh, definitely not right. You know, sometimes the more you put to it, you've layered in so much complexity to it that it becomes a an unsimple You like that unsimple experience, and that becomes such a burden for the customer. Jeff, can I tie? This is very much off the cuff. So can I tie what you just said there, what we're talking about here, that no one goes in intending to design a bad experience, but they may be inside of a structure, and whatever the layers might be tie that with your what you were telling me about very much at the beginning of the show, where the point is to understand the climate of CX. How can you weave that climate of CX and understanding that cx to overcoming what might be in a less optimal situation for you to create a good experience. How do you weave those two together to then be successful at creating better experiences? It's

Jeff Louden: 26:08

going to be conversation and collaboration with your coworkers. There's no way that we can know all of the things inside of the organization. We don't know all of the intricate details of a specific process, and we can't go and do every single job inside of the company. And I think that that, you know, what we do with that really is just having the conversations, and if we identify risk, and what we're looking for is risk in the customer experience, risk being, you know, this is, this is less than ideal, or there could be some potential blowback as a result of this, and bringing that up and surfacing it in those collaboration sessions that you're having with your co workers. Collaboration session could be a one on one that you're talking, you know, whatever, but you know, to a certain degree, it's kind of planning season just asking those questions. The most important thing is to ask the question and not necessarily have the solution. You know, I think, from from a CX, professional standpoint, is that that what we want is we want our organization to think about what it's doing, and we want it to think about, you know, the types of experiences that it's going to create. We want to surface up those trade off conversations. And sometimes the outcome of those trade off conversations may be less than ideal, and that's fine, but do we have to solve it today? You know? It's that Pareto principle of the 8020 can we get the core stuff done? And you know what? If this ends up being a problem, then you know what? It's incumbent upon us to track the data to revalidate it and then resurface it, yeah, if it's that big of an issue, but, you know, we don't need to be dying on every single hill inside of an organization just to, you know, be right, or get our way, or whatever we there's a lot of gray in the space. There's just, there's a ton of gray in the space.

Rick Denton: 28:00

Oh, that's something that we could and we're too close to out of time. But Jeff, maybe if you and I ever get back together again, that idea of advance and retreat, advance and retreat the don't die on every hill. How does one really advance a successful results driven, business results driven, customer experience agenda, understanding where to push and where not to push. Because we spend a lot of time talking about where to push. About where to push. I don't know that as a community, we talk enough about, hey, where do we strategically retreat? So let's just say that as a tease for future conversation, because there's something that I wanted to get to before we wrapped up today's episode, and it's you talked about this earlier. You got this product manager title, and you also talked about this wide spectrum of what that definition means. It's all over the map. There's people that want to be product managers, or maybe there are people that have just simply heard the title. It sounds interesting. Okay, it's kind of technology. It's kind of customer what is this? I don't know. What have you learned in your experience as a product manager that you would want to share with someone who is seeking to get into this world,

Jeff Louden: 29:03

ooh, ooh, that's a that's a very heavy question, and that's why we saved it for last. You know, any advice for somebody that would want to get into this is really to embrace, and we see these things in like, you know, everywhere, is embrace the uncertainty. Of course, yes, right. But really, actually do that and understand that, you know, getting comfortable. Gosh, it all sounds like cliches, getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. And what uncomfortable means is maybe some of those trade off conversations that we were talking about earlier. But that might you know, be what it what it looks like. It also there you'd always got to have your finger in the air and change, you know, understanding where the wind's going, and that goes to the climate. So there's a significant amount of ambiguity in this kind of work, just like there is in CX work where, you know, this quarter may look different than next quarter. So anybody that's wanting to to get into this space is, i. Would strongly encourage them to think through, literally think through, maybe even write it down. What are the assumptions that you're bringing to this conversation? Okay, what? What are the things that you're assuming are going on? And draw that out and give give a name to it, and ask more questions than giving you don't want to hear yourself talk. That's not the objective. Your objective is to hear other people talk. Because if you have an idea, but it comes out of somebody else's mouth, then your work is done, right?

Rick Denton: 30:39

You think about almost the definition of influence that right there it is. You've influenced them to take your idea and champion it for Jeff, I like how you link this back. I wouldn't, I didn't expect it, but linked it back to the climate idea at the beginning you talked about that. Shut up and listen. Aspect of it really being one that's more curious than directive. Those are, those are things that I see would be incredibly value. And the idea of what assumptions are you bringing to this, especially in something that has a title that's so divergent, well, what is that? What are you assuming that might help you narrow to a certain sector of that spectrum of what product manager means? Jeff enjoyed this. If folks wanted to get to know a little bit more about you, hear your approach to product management or customer experience, or even just, hey, tell me more about that radio stuff. What's the best way for them to get to know more?

Jeff Louden: 31:27

I'm on the linkedins so they can find me through the interwebs on the linkedins, and I certainly welcome and I respond to every connection request that I get. So that's how they might find me.

Rick Denton: 31:42

This is the one where I need to call the one where they say, Get off my lawn, because we've now talked about the interwebs, the linkedins, the did you use vinyl? We've we've really tapped into some of the the older, older references here, which is what I love about this. I never know where things are going to go. And I've learned a lot from you today, Jeff, in the wide range, from talking about the climate of cx to what it means to be a product manager to even, you know, offering some very tactical insight into what it meant to go through a job change inside of a difficult customer experience environment. I've really enjoyed it, Jeff. Jeff, thank you for being on CX passport, you

Jeff Louden: 32:18

know, thank you so much for having me. I've really enjoyed the conversation. I would love nothing more than to do it again.

Rick Denton: 32:29

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. If you liked today’s episode I have 3 quick next steps for you Click subscribe on the CX Passport youtube channel or your favorite podcast app Next leave a comment below the video or a review in your favorite podcast app so others can find and and enjoy CX Passport too Then, head over to cxpassport.com website for show notes and resources that can help you create tangible business results by delivering great customer experience. Until next time, I’m Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.