Rick Denton (00:27)
CX Passport listeners, today we get to welcome our very first guest from Denmark, Stine Marsal And a thank you to former guest, Janneke, from episode 234 for making this connection. Stine's track record is really this interesting blend. She shaped customer experience at Tivoli, the iconic Danish attraction that once inspired, yeah, Walt Disney, and later led service experience at Copenhagen airport.
What stood out when she and I talked earlier is how focused she is on tying experience to business results. And also how deeply she thinks about inclusive design, especially for people with hidden or neurodiverse needs. She now runs an experience management company with a very intentional focus on helping companies put purpose behind their metrics. Stine welcome to CX Passport.
Stine Marsal (01:22)
Thank you so much and compliments to you for being an English speaker and saying my name right. That is quite an
Rick Denton (01:30)
appreciate that. I want to make my guests feel comfortable. And so thank you for confirming that I said it the right way. I want to talk about that, that really cool combination of roles that you've had from Tivoli, which
that it truly it was the park that inspired Walt Disney to working at and leading experience at Copenhagen Airport. How did that background shape the way you think about experience today?
Stine Marsal (01:55)
I think actually my background as a sociologist is what has shaped me most. However, ⁓ so like that approach to being able to get into research and be like, what is the root of what we're dealing with here instead of kind of treating the surface, right? But ⁓ so Tivoli is obviously, it's an amusement park and the product is the experience.
Rick Denton (02:02)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Stine Marsal (02:25)
where when you then land in an environment like an airport where yes, the product is also experienced, but it is also ⁓ efficiency in getting people through, like there is constraints to which ways you can deliver experience, right? Because we might say, if we didn't have to go through security, it would be a better experience. However, there is compliance and rules and regulations. So that shift
Rick Denton (02:38)
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah.
Right.
Stine Marsal (02:54)
took me a while to get right. And what I mean by that is I didn't start seeing great results from my work until I stopped thinking about the customer and started thinking about the people that were delivering to the customer. So what were their barriers to getting the results they wanted? How could the main focus of, for instance, let's say security,
Rick Denton (03:14)
Interesting. Uh-huh.
Stine Marsal (03:24)
which is compliance and efficiency, how can the customer experience support that instead of thinking customer experience should be driving because that is just not how that works. I had to kind of look at it from a triangular angle, if you will.
Rick Denton (03:37)
Ooh, what?
Yeah.
That's a relatively contrarian view, or at least doesn't match what conventional wisdom in the customer experience world is, where you're saying, look, I know there's a spectrum of what this sentence actually means, but I stopped looking at the customer, but we're actually those who are delivering for the customer.
Stine Marsal (03:51)
Yeah.
what I mean is I spent my time looking at how can we optimize the customer experience, right? What is it exactly we need to do to deliver what they're here for? However, ⁓ there is a barrier to that in...
terms of getting employees to do something different when they are under constraints of having to deliver efficiency. Or it's great that you say we should be smiling, but I have, you know, 18 customers per hour being upset with me and speaking badly to me because I asked them something they don't want to do. So my customer was the people that I had to convince to do things in a different ways or, you know,
Rick Denton (04:25)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Stine Marsal (04:49)
So when I say I stopped worrying about the customer, it's more, started focusing on business strategy and the goals of the employees and the managers that I had to help them reach their goals and show how customer experience could be a support in that. Because if you go to any authority, police, border control, ⁓ security in a shopping center, whatever, and you say,
Rick Denton (04:56)
Yeah.
boy.
Mm-hmm.
Stine Marsal (05:15)
No, just smile and make it a great experience. They'll be like, yeah, great. But I have like the real part of my job, you know? So, so that's what I mean when I say I didn't start delivering great results until I started, started not worrying so much about the customer, but thinking about the people who needed to do stuff.
Rick Denton (05:21)
Yeah.
Yeah.
What I really, yeah,
what I really like about that is there's almost a glib ass phrase that's out there of, know, employee experience matters to customer experience. You're crystallizing it in a way that is more precise than what I feel like I hear a lot of words out there, that it's not just this fluffernutter employee experience, but rather reducing the barriers, making it possible, and also understanding
that there's context where what we might want as a ideal customer experience just simply isn't realistic. And I think that speaks to your approach towards business results, right? This isn't just the ivory tower, unicorns and rainbows view of customer experience. You've built an entire approach, an entire experience management community with clear business results heartbeat inside of it. What made it motivated you to create that group, right? This isn't just an idea. You've created a group around this.
What gap was it that you were trying to fill?
Stine Marsal (06:29)
So when I was in my corporate career, so I've been working, as you said, in Tivoli Gardens and Copenhagen Airport, and I've also worked in Copenhagen Zoo. And the thing that I felt was a pain point for me was any networks out there were always about sales or marketing, never really truly about customer experience. And the second pain point was when consultants were addressing me, they had concepts that were easy to sell, but hard to implement.
and I felt that getting advice from practitioners who had walked the walk and walked the talk and walked the walk, right. Got me a lot further than any of what I feel is fluffy BS that is out there. Like concepts that, as I said, they're, easy to sell, but sometimes very hard to implement because there is a complete, if you ask me, disconnect in the CX industry.
Rick Denton (07:10)
Right.
Stine Marsal (07:28)
where most people talk about centering the customer, but never talk about centering the work of getting change done, right? So when I focus on business result and strategy and say, how can customer experience support that? I address the gap that many, I feel, customer experience professionals are in where they are focused on experience and not results. And what that does to the industry and to the discipline is that once the going gets...
Rick Denton (07:49)
Mm-hmm.
Stine Marsal (07:57)
we get disregarded because it's just experience. And so, you know, I have a lot of consulting clients that are, you we're measuring NPS or we're measuring satisfaction because the better satisfaction, the better business results. But then they never tied it to their actual business results. You know, they read it in a book somewhere, but never contextualized for their own business or looked at if we raise the NPS, does results follow or should we?
Rick Denton (08:01)
Right, right.
Stine Marsal (08:27)
do something different. What touch points might we reduce if we're low interest company where customers just focus on the price anyway? Maybe that's not the right strategy. that's really the core of what I hope to inspire other people to do, but also the core of why I created that community is because when practitioners speak to practitioners, you get a truer version of what might
Rick Denton (08:28)
Right.
Mm-hmm. Right.
know, Stine, as you were saying that, I know that's something that certainly in the U S we have seen, I would say since about 2003, the real kind of reckoning around customer experience because there was this focus exclusively on experience and not enough on results. What do you think about our world? I think about all sorts of business disciplines.
And almost every other business discipline knew it had to have some sort of result tied to it. What was it about customer experience that we just went down the wrong path to start off with and now we are frequently finding, like you're saying in this gap, having a course correct and get back to a results mindset.
Stine Marsal (10:06)
Hmm. No, but I think that this connect is that a lot of people think because it's called custom experience management that experiences the end goal, right? But it's not the result from that experiences. And when we don't talk about or think about why do I want a better experience in this particular touch point? What does it bring? Test it, evaluate it, change if it doesn't bring results. I mean, I'm not.
I'm not a person who would ever argue you should measure everything you do. think there's a way too much measuring going on because sometimes people just don't measure the right things. They harass the customers with too many surveys, right? but, but, but, but so just being clear about we want a better experience because we expect it to bring this.
Rick Denton (10:46)
Right.
preach.
Mm-hmm.
Stine Marsal (11:04)
And then when you start using your tools, then evaluate if it is the right tools. There's too much assumption in our industry.
Rick Denton (11:14)
Yeah, and I wonder what it was in our core that just went down there. What I love is that we are kind of correcting and we're getting back to it. And some of it is the reckoning has forced the hand of those of us in the CX world and being able to say, all right, these are the results that are tied to it. I want to switch up a little bit, because when we talk about experience, when we talk about results, there are communities that often get overlooked. And one of the things that you talked about is before you left the airport, you launched a disability awareness program that clearly made a deep impression.
What opened your eyes to not just the need, but the scale of the need and what did that mapping journey really reveal for you?
Stine Marsal (11:55)
So I'd love to say that I was foresighted and visionary and thought, you know, inclusion was the thing. But airports are regulated to teach and inform staff about the rights of the disabled passenger. So what I did that was, you know, visionary was the format. I didn't want to make like a pamphlet or a boring compliance course, right? So what I did was I mapped
Rick Denton (12:01)
Mm-hmm.
Stine Marsal (12:24)
of the barriers experienced in the journey across the airport as seen by people with hearing impairments, visual impairments, speech impairments, autism, ADHD, anxiety, wheelchair users, all kinds of different types of disabilities. So I used that journey mapping tool to kind of look at all of the touch points we had seen from that perspective. And what was for me,
and enlightening moment was that across all the different types of disabilities, many of the same barriers were showing up. dealing with misunderstandings. So like I'm dyslexic or I have a visual impairment and I ask, where is gait something. And people would be like, follow the signs. So I get misinterpreted
Rick Denton (13:17)
Yeah
Stine Marsal (13:20)
people that are autistic might get a sensory overload in airport security or any other process where it's not entirely clear what exactly is expected of you, right? The same is true for someone with a hearing impairment because I have to focus so deeply on your mouth moving to be sure I hear what you're saying. And then you turn away. And when you turn back and I haven't heard you and I don't do what you said, you
Rick Denton (13:34)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Stine Marsal (13:49)
you will speak to me like I am purposefully trying to ignore the rules. So there was a lot of anxiety from the misunderstandings happening. so what we did was we did this, I did this e-learning course that was rolled out across ⁓ the airport. And the fact that I saw barriers that I just had never considered.
Rick Denton (13:59)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Stine Marsal (14:17)
kind of blew my mind. And at the time then I was like, but I mean, it's not that many, right? I mean, so it's a good thing we're doing this little info course and the Autism Association would be happy and the Dementia Association would be happy. it's a good thing, but it's for the few. And then I have a conversation with the Knowledge Center on Disabilities and they were like, well, ⁓ there just come out some new numbers where the Danish population had.
Rick Denton (14:23)
Right.
Stine Marsal (14:45)
answered questions about disabilities, et cetera. Turns out one in four has a hidden disability. One in four. 15 to 20 % neurodivergent.
Rick Denton (14:47)
Mm-hmm.
Whoa. Wow.
Hmm.
Stine Marsal (15:00)
Is that a big chunk of our customers? What is the business potential of that in an airport of at the time 30 million annual passengers? Because a lot of what was said from like the whole spectrum I interviewed was there are certain things like barriers, anxiety, misunderstandings, stress, the cognitive load of whatever diagnosis of disability I have.
Rick Denton (15:02)
Yeah. Like when you.
Stine Marsal (15:29)
makes it so that I either choose not to buy anything or I entirely choose not to fly. So obviously it's not all of the hundred percent of people with a hidden disability who might choose not to buy, right? Because it can be related to a lot of different, it can be chronic pain, it can be autism, it can be a lot of different things. So if we're conservative and we just say, let's imagine we could get
25 % of the 25 % to buy a cup of coffee, which it doesn't cost $100, but you know, isn't cheap. I know, but like, you know, thinking of it that way really kind of flipped a switch for me because after we had launched, had someone, it was a passenger who was traveling with a hearing impairment who wrote me and said, I am so proud today. And the reason he knew we had rolled out the training was that we got a lot of press from it, right? So it's been in the media.
Rick Denton (16:07)
It feels that way at some airports, but...
Mm-hmm.
Stine Marsal (16:29)
He was like, I'm so proud because today for the first time I bought a cup of coffee in the airport and I just wanted to reach out and say thank you because I have never had the courage to do so. Because after having gone through security and that whole process, walking up to someone ordering a cup of coffee with a deaf accent, you know, he said when you're treated as though you are stupid every time you try to communicate, it gives you anxiety, right? But today I did that and I just want to thank you. Imagine having a customer thank you for
you know, being able to spend money on your stuff. So, so that for me was like, okay, there's something here that I should look into. And since then I have done a lot of qualitative interviews, digging deeper into this. And what is really interesting about centering accessibility and the people that experience the highest barriers to the customer experience you provide.
Centering that.
doesn't just make the experience smoother for them or accessible for them. Because what they all have in common, and that is why some of the same barriers showed up across different types of segments, is that they go through life with a higher cognitive load from the disability they have, the diagnosis they have, the way they process information differently than others, et cetera. But everybody...
Rick Denton (17:50)
Right. Right.
Stine Marsal (17:59)
goes through life with a higher cognitive load at some point. It might be you have back pain. It might be you just grow older and your hearing starts to go, or like me, I'm 52 soon. I have 50 year eyes. I can't see if I don't have my glasses. But also we go through life where divorce happens, grief happens, caring for children with a disability or a spouse that maybe suddenly have a disability. And during those times,
what we experience, the barriers we experience are similar, right? So it is not 25%. When you make your customer experience smooth for those that experience the highest barriers, everybody can access it easier, even just people like you and me who are, know, Monday stressed and just don't have the capacity to read through a bunch of lines, right?
Rick Denton (18:34)
Right.
Right.
Well, and the idea that this is not, that what you might design for those that might have a hidden disability or those that might have neurodivergence or any other sort of, I like the term cognitive load there because honestly, I think all of us have overwhelming cognitive load in an airport. It just is by nature what it is and how improving that for that community ends up improving it for all.
that's an epiphany that you, had, How did you help extend that epiphany into others to help them understand that we're not just fixing for this community, we're fixing for all.
Stine Marsal (19:30)
Well, I think...
One of the things I always do when I, if I have a new client within Custom Experience, I look at what sector are they in? So for instance, I had a global public transportation company who wanted my help in designing their passenger experience model. And so we had this conversation about, ⁓ and I said, I'm happy to do this, I think you should look at.
leading with neurodivergence, you know, because that would also make it easier for tourists to navigate the systems. It would make it easier for people navigating in second or third language. It would make it easier for the elderly who also have an increased cognitive load, you know. And so ⁓ it depends a little bit which sector you're in, what angle is most important. If you're a company like an insurance company where most of your communication maybe is written.
then try and lead with dyslexia. Make sure you write everything so someone with dyslexia can read it as easily as possible, right? Because if you can make it an easy read and understandable for them, someone with ADHD might also have the patience to finish whatever you're writing. And someone who is just super stressed and have a lot going on will also, you know, be able to process the information you're trying to give us.
Rick Denton (20:34)
Mm-hmm.
Stine Marsal (20:57)
So the angle that's relevant is a little bit different, but you don't have to understand like 38 different things. You just have to look at the barriers that are most prevalent.
Rick Denton (21:04)
Mm-hmm.
Stine, I love that idea of designing for those that would have the cognitive load, those that would have the dyslexia, those that would have the neurodivergent, all of that, and then that extend into greater overall experience. I mentioned earlier that I felt like airports just create cognitive load on all of us, and that's why it can be nice when we're traveling to stop down in the first class lounge. So I invite you to do that with me here today. We'll stop down, have a little fun, move quickly here.
What is a dream travel location from your past?
Stine Marsal (21:52)
My dream travel location would be a place I went to in Greece a few years ago with my family. I was bordering burnout and we went to this very non-exotic, all-inclusive place that the kids loved. you know, other people might come up with like a great something, something. It was the, you know, Carter holiday from hell, some would say.
Rick Denton (21:59)
Okay, yeah.
⁓ yeah.
Stine Marsal (22:20)
But for me, it was just wonderful because food was taken care of. The kids were busy. It was zen.
Rick Denton (22:28)
I think sometimes that gets overlooked as a really ideal destination. There's something really nice. My wife and I do the Mexican all-inclusives all the time because there's something really nice that it is truly show up and you are done thinking. It's just, do I have a desire? And then I can request that desire. That's it. And so, yeah, that's right.
Stine Marsal (22:47)
The cognitive load is gone. I don't have to think
about what I'm cooking.
Rick Denton (22:53)
Well, if that's your favorite one from the past, what is a dream travel location you've not been to yet?
Stine Marsal (22:59)
I would love to go to Japan just because I have like a passion for sushi. I absolutely love sushi. And I would love to experience the culture and obviously the food.
Rick Denton (23:01)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Well, let's stay in that food vein because yes, my trip to Japan and long time listeners know my son studied there. Japan comes up a lot. I loved the food there. What is a favorite thing of yours to eat?
Stine Marsal (23:27)
Well, I have a restaurant here in Copenhagen, which so far has been, in my opinion, world's best sushi. He has a sizzling, marquee roll. That's my thing.
Rick Denton (23:34)
Okay.
Ooh,
Rick turns to his keyboard, books a flight to Denmark and looks for the sizzling Maki roll. Got it, that's awesome. Well, what about the other way, Stine? What's something you were forced to eat growing up but you hated as a kid?
Stine Marsal (23:47)
Copenhagen, yeah.
I had cool parents, they didn't force me to eat anything.
Rick Denton (23:59)
Okay, I like that. Okay, so no forcing, no anything like that.
Stine Marsal (24:02)
Yeah. Nope. mean, I didn't
like boiled vegetables because they were mushy, but I was never forced to eat them.
Rick Denton (24:10)
Okay, well, I'm with
you on the boiled vegetables. Give me a raw veggie, I'm fine, but the boiled, not so much. Tina, unfortunately, it is time for us to leave the first class lounge. What is something, not including your phone, not including your passport, that you will not leave home without?
Stine Marsal (24:24)
I mean, for a vacation or just like...
Rick Denton (24:28)
You're traveling, what will you not leave home without?
Stine Marsal (24:31)
by ADHD medication.
because that wouldn't be good for my family if I was with them.
Rick Denton (24:43)
Stine what I love is after over 250 episodes, sometimes I hear the same answers. I can assure you that is not one that I have heard and yet I think it's probably one of the most vital, don't leave home without items. And so I'm glad that you brought that into the story. We mentioned this a little bit earlier. You were talking about metrics and the wrong metrics and that aspect of it. And you've been clear, you're not anti-NPS, you're anti-misusing NPS. You focus on the, well, for what?
the business outcome. How has that shaped the way you lead your community? And what do you wish more leaders would rethink about metrics?
Stine Marsal (25:22)
First of all, are you measuring because you have an internal KPI you need to show to someone? So are you measuring to tap yourself on the shoulder? That is an inconvenience to your customers. Are you measuring to actually improve your business and get results? Then if you always just ask the NPS question, I am quite sure that you don't have the answers you want for two reasons.
One, ⁓ yesterday I got an NPS survey from something called Öresundsbollen. That is a highway leading to Sweden. So it's a bridge that you cross to drive from Copenhagen to Sweden. So it is a freeway, like a motorway, right? Asking me the chance of me recommending that to someone. ⁓ There is one way to go there if you need to go by car. That is the way, right? ⁓
Rick Denton (26:04)
Yeah.
Stine Marsal (26:21)
And then I got two similar questions from two different package delivery companies. And I also bought a tea cooker and I got on a scale from zero to 10, what is, you know, same question. So everybody asks it and it's annoying, right? So if you really wanted to improve your business, obviously you have to attack what doesn't work. So ask what should have been better.
Rick Denton (26:47)
Right. Right.
Stine Marsal (26:48)
And
then the people that answer will give you the key to improve your business results. So that is one. The second one is a lot of companies just automatically think so. there's been a lot of hype around NPS where it's been branded as a high NPS equals business results. You know, and, and the studies have been done. That is the case for some sectors, but not for all. So the way, ⁓ you know, if you have a low interest product, people might recommend it.
Rick Denton (27:04)
Right.
Stine Marsal (27:17)
But they choose on price if it's something that's just, you know, and when I was in Tivoli, if you ask customers upon exit, for instance, on a scale from zero to 10, what is the likelihood of you recommending Tivoli gotten to someone? People will give you a high score for the reason that it is the number one tourist attraction in Denmark, right? So, you know, a lot of companies don't understand.
Rick Denton (27:19)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Stine Marsal (27:43)
the difference between brand NPS, transactional NPS, and the importance of looking at comments and zooming in on comments. You can have an amazing net promoter score, but still have business critical issues awaiting you. If you don't look at the comments that aren't great and look at them also from a critical perspective, you might just have five bad comments over a quarter on a specific topic.
Rick Denton (27:49)
Right.
yeah, yeah.
Stine Marsal (28:10)
But if that topic is potentially something that can blow up, you should do something about it, even though it looks small. So it's more the lack of reflection around it. So a lot of companies are selling the NPS concept, but forgetting how to implement it and get business value from it. So, you know, I've used it myself. I mean, not one-to-one because we tried to measure, you know, insecurity, what should we improve? Obviously you can't ask people, would you recommend security?
Rick Denton (28:15)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Stine Marsal (28:40)
to someone, I mean, it's a mandatory check, right? So we just asked about the experience on a scale and then we had a conversation about what is the reason for the score. so we had in Copenhagen Airport, mean, security in Copenhagen Airport won like world's best security experience four times. So the experience was high. What I hadn't expected was the NPS to be 70, right? But it's not the real NPS. Obviously when you don't ask, recommend, it's a little different, but we tweaked it. Anyway. ⁓
Rick Denton (28:42)
Right.
Right.
Stine Marsal (29:10)
But what was relevant was never really the score. It was what to improve. So I desire for more companies to look at their comments and instead of focusing on a number, focus on X percent of our comments have this theme. In three months or six months, we are a success if that theme has disappeared. You so you work on that. You work towards excellence by constantly eliminating whatever is dragging you down.
Rick Denton (29:30)
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Stine Marsal (29:40)
And unfortunately, and that's where the CX industry is going wrong. We focus on the glitz and the glitter and the, you know, Disney images and all of those fluffy things that the experience sector brings. And we can be inspired by the experience sector. However, if you're never really just focused on what are the complaints, what are our pain points and fixing those, the score doesn't matter.
Rick Denton (29:54)
Yeah.
Yeah. And the score doesn't matter and getting into the comments, those are things that really matter. The thing that I love that you added to this that I'm sure I've heard, but not quite crystallized as well as be thinking about asking your questions in such a way of, you know, getting to where you can get them to tell you what is the business value, getting them to tell you.
what really are not just the pain points. That's too easy of a phrase, but really being thoughtful in how you ask or even because you're not getting to ask customers all the time, just how you discern what they feel about your experience. And then certainly down in the comments with the tools we have today, it's so much easier to extract themes that we might not have been able to grab before. And I got to tell you, I was cracking up when you mentioned the bridge NPS, because I got a toll road here where I live that I have received a similar survey.
No, I don't recommend it because it's the only road. Like the other option is don't go home. So I don't really recommend the don't go home options to folks.
Stine Marsal (31:10)
Because when we talk about measuring and doing NPS, the thing that you also should be conscious about as a business is when you survey your customers, you don't see what the reasons are for the customers that never come. Right? You don't see those barriers. So that's for me, when I mapped the passenger experience of Copenhagen airport, I got to talk to some customers.
who would never come. And that was very interesting because you only see the customers you have and maybe the ones leaving in your service, right? But what are the reasons that some customers never come? There's a big business potential in that.
Rick Denton (31:52)
⁓ yeah, absolutely. And
we think about that, like as individuals, we can easily think about that, that there are brands, there are experiences, there are products that I do not choose. And I know why I don't choose them, but that brand, that product, that experience, they don't know why I didn't choose that. And so getting into that information, yeah, absolutely. Stine, what a wide ranging conversation, which is exactly how I like my travels to be. And so I love the conversations to be this way from the idea of...
unlocking an overall experience improvement by focusing on communities like neurodivergence and other communities in that space. That's that truly is eye opening for me. And then this idea of getting again a reminder, a re centering around it's the business results that matter, not just the random score. Stine, folks wanted to get to know a little bit more about you, the work you do, improving their own business results.
Stine Marsal (32:46)
Yep.
Rick Denton (32:46)
What's the best
way for them to learn more?
Stine Marsal (32:48)
⁓ Find me on LinkedIn, follow me there, connect with me on my website, steenemarcell.dk.
Rick Denton (32:55)
Awesome. I will get all of that information in the show notes before Stine. This has been a true delight for me. I have enjoyed it, not just because you are the first guest from Denmark, which is always exciting to add a new country to the map, but because of the wisdom and the insights that you shared today were really valuable to me. And I know they're valuable to the listeners as Stine, thank you for being on CX Passport.
Stine Marsal (33:14)
You are welcome.
